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Texas Dad Killed in Custody Argument Over Son

ChicagoFats

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Hate to say it, but I think this was a justified shooting.

The teal shirt guy reached for the gun and tried to take it from an armed citizen who had asked him to leave a house he legally occupied.

Not guilty, based on what we know right now.
 

sanction

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Hate to say it, but I think this was a justified shooting.

The teal shirt guy reached for the gun and tried to take it from an armed citizen who had asked him to leave a house he legally occupied.

Not guilty, based on what we know right now.
Not guilty according to Texas law.
 

GarnetPild

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Terrible situation, all around. If the father was there to pick up his son, per the judge's order, then the mom not letting him get the kid is maybe kidnapping? Not sure, but either way who the fuck goes on someone else's property, & when confronted by the property owner with a gun, grabs for the gun?! As demonstrated by the video, that is a great way to get shot.
 

ChicagoFats

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Terrible situation, all around. If the father was there to pick up his son, per the judge's order, then the mom not letting him get the kid is maybe kidnapping? Not sure, but either way who the fuck goes on someone else's property, & when confronted by the property owner with a gun, grabs for the gun?! As demonstrated by the video, that is a great way to get shot.

It’s not close to kidnapping. Think about every married couple fighting over children. If one is late to a meet up, that is NOT kidnapping. Not even close.

It sucks and is bad from / wrong. But it’s a far cry from kidnapping.
 

Rva

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Someone comes on my porch like that I’m gonna grab my gun. That person grabs my gun, I’m going to shoot them. Of course I’m from Lubbock so take it with a grain of salt.
 

GarnetPild

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It’s not close to kidnapping. Think about every married couple fighting over children. If one is late to a meet up, that is NOT kidnapping. Not even close.

It sucks and is bad from / wrong. But it’s a far cry from kidnapping.

I don't know the details but I just heard Tim Pool say that the Mom was not letting the Dad get their son, which was what the judge ordered...that could mean anything from the kid is running late & not ready to be picked up, to the kid is locked in the house and the mom refused to turn him over, while her boyfriend tries to chase off the dad with a gun. One of those things sounds like kidnapping. Either way, like I said, just dumb as shit to try to take a gun from a property owner on their own property. Asking to be shot.
 

BurntJ

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Yeah I saw this yesterday AND HAD NO DESIRE TO POST IT. This is going to be very messed as the details say there was/had been a lot of custody interference (what the mom was doing….keeping dad from son) and this video looks to be a case of self defense BUT this is appears to be a horrible example for everyone.
 

ChicagoFats

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I don't know the details but I just heard Tim Pool say that the Mom was not letting the Dad get their son, which was what the judge ordered...that could mean anything from the kid is running late & not ready to be picked up, to the kid is locked in the house and the mom refused to turn him over, while her boyfriend tries to chase off the dad with a gun. One of those things sounds like kidnapping. Either way, like I said, just dumb as shit to try to take a gun from a property owner on their own property. Asking to be shot.

If you aren't getting your son due to a court order then you probably need to call the police. Does not give you the right to try and forcefully take the son or grab a gun from another individual.

I don't like the guys actions, but from a LEGAL standpoint I think he is, or should be, in the clear.

Since when is it ok to try and grab a gun away from someone? Thats called Darwinism where im from. Same as in the Rittenhouse case, don't chase after an armed person and don't try to take a gun away from a law abiding citizen.
 

ChicagoFats

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Yeah I saw this yesterday AND HAD NO DESIRE TO POST IT. This is going to be very messed as the details say there was/had been a lot of custody interference (what the mom was doing….keeping dad from son) and this video looks to be a case of self defense BUT this is appears to be a horrible example for everyone.

Agreed, just a shitty shitty example. But if you have to choose between murder and self defense, with the laws the way they are written, I think you have to go with self defense.
 

GarnetPild

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If you aren't getting your son due to a court order then you probably need to call the police. Does not give you the right to try and forcefully take the son or grab a gun from another individual.

I don't like the guys actions, but from a LEGAL standpoint I think he is, or should be, in the clear.

Since when is it ok to try and grab a gun away from someone? Thats called Darwinism where im from. Same as in the Rittenhouse case, don't chase after an armed person and don't try to take a gun away from a law abiding citizen.

Ok. I agree with all of that 100%.
 

BurntJ

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Agreed, just a shitty shitty example. But if you have to choose between murder and self defense, with the laws the way they are written, I think you have to go with self defense.
While I completely agree….I also recognize that step dad/boyfriend was a complete pussy. 1st of step/ boyfriend shouldn’t be involved at all in that situation ever IMHO. Mom and Dad and police can work it out. There was NO DANGER TO HIS LIFE. Dad didn’t have a weapon..

Again I didn’t bring this up bc it’s a COMPLETE FUCKIN MESS. This is not a good case for OR against gun laws/rights. This is more an indictment of divorce courts/laws IYAM.
 

BurntJ

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Since the burden of proof in a civil trial is much lower than a criminal trial, she may prevail.

She will still have to get past the Texas self-defense laws, i believe, which are pretty strong.
Yep. I could see her winning the civil BUT no charges. 100 million? I’m not saying that in winning as I have NO IDEA.
 

PowerMEGA

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The shooter was not justified. The dad posed no lethal threat, so the shooter is not justified to use lethal force in self defense. Bringing a gun to a verbal altercation like this is also a massive escalation of the situation. The only thing the dad was doing was trespassing, and even that is questionable considering he had a court order to pick up his child. I highly doubt the shooter gets off for this, even in TX.
 

BLatta12

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The shooter was not justified. The dad posed no lethal threat, so the shooter is not justified to use lethal force in self defense. Bringing a gun to a verbal altercation like this is also a massive escalation of the situation. The only thing the dad was doing was trespassing, and even that is questionable considering he had a court order to pick up his child. I highly doubt the shooter gets off for this, even in TX.
This is an interesting take I haven’t heard. Thanks for sharing. Most people are ready to chalk this up as clear cut self-defense.
 

catreaper

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The shooter was not justified. The dad posed no lethal threat, so the shooter is not justified to use lethal force in self defense. Bringing a gun to a verbal altercation like this is also a massive escalation of the situation. The only thing the dad was doing was trespassing, and even that is questionable considering he had a court order to pick up his child. I highly doubt the shooter gets off for this, even in TX.
100% Agreed. This guy was a huge piece of shit. All the people in this thread saying “he tried to take away the gun, so it was justified” are absolute morons. What are you going to do if someone rams a rifle in your gut. Also, when kids come into play, emotions very easily get out of hand. Honestly, he seemed like a good dad for caring so much. I’m more astounded at how calm everyone was after the shooting.
 

TJHall1

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The mom is a piece of shit too. You can tell from the dialogue that she is jerking this guy around, telling him he could pick them up at 6 and not even having them at the house when he's supposed to get them at 3:15. These are the dumbasses that give pro2A people a bad name.
 

PowerMEGA

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There are 5 elements that are necessary for a claim of self defense. All 5 need to be satisfied, and if even one is not satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt, the entire claim of self defense collapses.

1. Innocence
2. Imminence
3. Avoidance
4. Proportionality
5. Reasonableness

The shooter fails four out of five of these essential tests, with Imminence being the only one he satisfies, and even that is sketchy. This is a slam dunk case for the prosecution.

ElementsOfSelfDefense.png
 
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thenick_ttu

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100% Agreed. This guy was a huge piece of shit. All the people in this thread saying “he tried to take away the gun, so it was justified” are absolute morons. What are you going to do if someone rams a rifle in your gut. Also, when kids come into play, emotions very easily get out of hand. Honestly, he seemed like a good dad for caring so much. I’m more astounded at how calm everyone was after the shooting.

I don't disagree that the guy is a piece of shit and escalated the situation by bringing the gun out, but once the gun does come out, the other guy is the absolute moron in this situation. You asked "What are you going to do if someone rams a rifle in your gut". Me personally, I'm going to raise my hands and step away from that person... not give them any additional reason to pull that trigger. Once the guy puts his hands on the gun and tries to take it away, he's won the Darwin award (even if he was in the right legally, which I'm not sure he was). Seems to me that both of the men in this situation are absolute morons. The guy who got shot only has himself to blame for the ultimate outcome.
 

PowerMEGA

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After the shooter fired that warning shot, the dad should have retreated to the property boundary and called the police. This is not to say that he was legally obligated to do so, but that it would have been the smart thing to do, and he would likely be alive had he done so.

At that point, the police have a slam dunk case against the shooter for a variety of crimes, including assault with a deadly weapon, reckless endangerment, and felony menacing.
 

imprimis

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After the shooter fired that warning shot, the dad should have retreated to the property boundary and called the police. This is not to say that he was legally obligated to do so, but that it would have been the smart thing to do, and he would likely be alive had he done so.

At that point, the police have a slam dunk case against the shooter for a variety of crimes, including assault with a deadly weapon, reckless endangerment, and felony menacing.
Not to mention refusing to abide with a court order and discharging a weapon in city limits.
 

BurntJ

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There are 5 elements that are necessary for a claim of self defense. All 5 need to be satisfied, and if even one is not satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt, the entire claim of self defense collapses.

1. Innocence
2. Imminence
3. Avoidance
4. Proportionality
5. Reasonableness

The shooter fails four out of five of these essential tests, with Imminence being the only one he satisfies, and even that is sketchy. This is a slam dunk case for the prosecution.

View attachment 63300
Exactly. This is what I was pointing to when I kept saying this isn’t clear cut….and this sure as hell isn’t a case for Either Pro OR Anti 2A to use. This is trashy people and divorce. This isn’t what self defense is for. That fella wasn’t in any real imminent danger.
 

thenick_ttu

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Exactly. This is what I was pointing to when I kept saying this isn’t clear cut….and this sure as hell isn’t a case for Either Pro OR Anti 2A to use. This is trashy people and divorce. This isn’t what self defense is for. That fella wasn’t in any real imminent danger.

I will be following this one very closely as it goes through the courts. I think he’ll end up getting convicted of some form of murder/manslaughter but I don’t think it is a slam dunk answer. I think history/back story will play a big part. Had either of these guys threatened the other in the past?
 

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